"We Didn't Know This Flood Was Coming"

[Note, no more updates to this story as of 1pm Tuesday; 
there is an updated story here.]


...so said the chief executive of Kerr County, Texas, Rob Kelly. He went on to say, "We had no reason to believe that this was going to be anything like what's happened here, none whatsoever." 

I'm sorry to report that he is probably correct. The flood was underforecast and the "emergency" warnings were later than they could have been. In fairness, as of the time of this update, 1:30pm Monday, the U.S. Geological Survey has determined this was the highest crest on the Guadalupe River at Hunt, Texas, since the river gauge was installed. 

As of 1p Tuesday, 105 have been confirmed to have been killed and "dozens" are missing. Those numbers imply a total death toll near 130.

This past autumn, Hurricane Helene killed 249. In 2011, a single tornado killed 161 in Joplin. We must stop these mega-disasters!

This is another tragic example of why America desperately needs a National Disaster Review Board to study this catastrophe and why might have been done better so as to prevent future flood catastrophes. Until a NDRB is created by Congress, we are doomed to unnecessary loss of life due to floods, tornadoes and other natural disasters. Please write your congresspeople and ask them to create a NDRB. It is easy to do using their websites (example:  www.cornyn.senate.gov/share-opinion/ ).

In the absence of a NDRB, I am providing this limited report on this catastrophic event. 

For valuable background data and history of floods in Texas' "flash flood alley," go here

The Storm

[7:30p Monday] The U.S. Geological Survey reached the Hunt river gauge and determined the river stage Friday morning was the highest in the recorded history of the river. It is not surprising the river stage was underforecast nor is that fact a criticism of the NWS. Meteorologists can only do so much. 

[Original Text] Based on data from the University of Oklahoma, a preliminary estimate is that a flood of this magnitude has a 0.5% to 1% chance of occurring in any given year (sometimes mislabeled, as in the legend at right, as a "100-year flood" or a 100 to 200-year flood). The heaviest rain fell over the South Fork of the Guadalupe River just upstream of many of the camp sites, see county map below. This information is available to the NWS and is updated hourly. There are multiple reports that say the flooding began at two of the camps right around 4 am. 
Flood Recurrence Interval. Note the darkest color is along the South Fork of the
Guadalupe River southwest (upstream) of the camps.

Map of Kerr County, Texas. The diamonds south of Hunt
are some of the camp sites. Most or all of the missing children are
from Camp Mystic. 

We are going to discuss the sequence of warnings as well as the meteorology the night of the 3rd and 4th for the area in the map above. There were other serious floods this weekend but they are not covered in this report. 

The Warnings

A flash flood watch was issued the evening of the 3rd. A watch means that conditions for flooding -- over a broad area -- existed. The NWS did a fine job with the watch as its computerized guidance material as of 7pm on the 3rd, completely missed the heavy rains.

The National Weather Service (NWS) has three types of flood warnings pertinent to the morning of the fourth:
  • Flood warning (FW) is issued for rivers and is valid for a specific point, often where a river gauge is located (for forecast and comparison purposes to previous floods). 
  • Flash flood warning (FFW) is issued when a rapid rise of water level is expected, usually in the following three hours or less. 
  • Flash flood emergency (FFE) is issued when the extent of the flash flooding is forecast to be of a life-threatening nature. 
Please read these words of the National Weather Service which describe the two types of flash flood warnings:

"The National Weather Service (NWS) began issuing Flash Flood Emergency warnings in 2003. These warnings are reserved for exceedingly rare and life-threatening flash flood events, often involving catastrophic damage and requiring immediate action, such as water rescues or evacuations. The designation was introduced to highlight the most severe flooding situations, distinct from standard Flash Flood Warnings, to better communicate urgency to the public and emergency managers." -- from a NWS summary via AI.

Above are the words of the National Weather Service. 

Since the NWS made the addition of flash flood emergency warnings, I -- and others -- have expressed concern that we are inadvertently training the public to put less emphasis on ordinary flash flood warnings. This is especially the case since we sometimes do not have the meteorological and hydrological skill to consistently separate the two threat levels, regular and emergency. 

The river flood warnings (FW) are usually aimed at emergency managers, barge operators, boat concession operators, etc., as very few members of the public know the location of flood gauges and the river heights pertinent to their locations. 

Here is a table of the pertinent warnings and related information the morning of the 4th:

Time                Type                Info Contained in Warning Message

1:14a               FFW                 Kerr County

3:33a               FW                   Guadalupe River at Hunt, moderate flooding

3:35a               FFW                 Continue FFW for Kerr County

4:00a               FW                   Guadalupe at Hunt, major flooding, rise to 23.8’

4:03a               FFE                  Flash flood emergency south central Kerr County

4:23a               Radar image    FFE appended to radar image; 5-10” had fallen

4:46a               FW                   Guadalupe River at Guadalupe River at Kerrville

5:08a                Hydrograph       Guadalupe R @ Hunt, "life-threatening situation"

5:23a               FW                   Guadalupe River @ Comfort, moderate flood

5:34a               FFE                  Guadalupe River at Hunt and downstream


The first mention I can find of a "flash flood emergency" was contained in the radar image caption below: The 4:03am FFE did not appear in the College of DuPage list I consulted. Thanks to reader Mark Conner for finding it at the Iowa State University archive and sending it to me. 

The gray area inside the white (above) is 10+ inches of rain as estimated by radar (see scale at top). Keep in mind that if "major" flooding is being measured at Hunt (see hydrograph below), the river is at least as high or higher south toward the camps!  . the major flood stage had already occurred at the camps upstream along the South Fork of the Guadalupe where the heaviest rain had fallen. See map of Kerr County (above). A radar image of this nature would not trigger weather radios, automatic television bulletins, StormCall (telephone call warnings), et cetera. 

As indicated above, there was a flash flood emergency issued at 4:03am. Unfortunately, that was coincident with the flooding of several of the campgrounds. The warning was well done for those downstream toward Kerrville. 

The hydrograph for the Guadalupe River -- based on the river gauge east (downstream) of the town of Hunt is below. The surge of floodwaters would have reached the camps sooner than indicated on the graph. The stage shown, which may not have been the crest, was the second highest ever measured at Hunt. 
Both infrared satellite and radar indicate torrential rains were in progress by around 1am over the South Fork of the Guadalupe (where most of the camps were located). You can see the rapid rise begin about 2am. "Moderate" flooding is shown at about 3am and "major" flooding around 4am. It is hard to understand -- given the radar, satellite and hydrograph data -- why the flash flood emergency wasn't issued by 3am. 

[Sunday, Noon] The New York Times has a story today that mentions the NWS's San Angelo office in connection with this tragedy. That office had no warning responsibility -- at all -- for the Guadalupe River (pale blue) which is where the camp was located. All storm warnings for Kerr County are the responsibility of the San Antonio office. 
Between the dark blue lines is Texas' Colorado River system. While floodwaters from a separate
storm complex flowed down that river toward Austin, the tragedy at the camps was completely outside
of the Colorado's watershed.
The map shows an arrowing pointing at the location Camp Mystic and the other camps located on the South Fork of the Guadalupe. There is no flow into that river -- at all -- from the north. The Times is attempting to make a political statement when there is none to be made. 

The Camps and Emergency Management

We do not know:
  • What system, if any, Camp Mystic or the other camps had to receive storm warnings. 
  • What procedures, if any, the camps had when flash flood warnings or flash flood emergencies were issued for their locations? The should be asked for tornado warnings. 
  • Whether there were staff briefings or staff + campers drills for high risk weather safety procedures? 
  • Do the camps have cell phones or landlines?
  • The above questions should be asked of emergency management once the search and rescue activities for this tragic event are finished.
  • Addition at 5pm Saturday. Please see this from KXAN TV. As indicated here, there are many questions being asked about the action, or lack of action, by emergency management. 
DOGE

A reporter from CNN and others have asked on Twitter/X whether the DOGE cuts were responsible for the lack of adequate warning. The answer appears to be "no."

I'm told the Austin - San Antonio NWS forecast office had its meteorologist-in-charge and -- most important -- its hydrologist after the DOGE cuts. The latter is the person with the most responsibility for creating and overseeing flood warnings and flood warning programs at that office. It did not currently have a Science Operations Officer nor a Warning Coordination Meteorologist. However, those positions are usually 8-4:30 M-F and so would not have been on duty in the early morning of a holiday.

There were two meteorologist openings yesterday but that is pretty typical as people transfered, get promoted, etc. Might there have been some extra fatigue? Yes, that is possible but -- again -- this is pretty typical. It is also possible for a NWS office to transfer routine forecasts and other duties to its primary or secondary backup office(s) so they can focus on severe weather conditions. Off-duty personnel can also be called in. As it turns out, they had extra people on duty due to the flood threat.
Friday's flood in the Texas Hill Country was similar to an even worse (meteorologically) flash flood in Tennessee in 2021 when 17 inches of rain fell and 18 perished in the middle of the night. In that case, as well as yesterday's, the warnings were inadequate. Of course, the 2021 event had nothing to do with DOGE. 

In 2016, a horrible flash flood -- which occurred in daylight during business hours -- occurred at Greenbrier West Virginia with 26 killed. There was almost no warning at all from the NWS. The point is that poorly warned floods occurred long before DOGE existed.

Finally, there is no climate change connection. Major flash floods in that part of Texas are becoming less common

Comments

  1. The general anti science rhetoric now promoted in the USA by politicians underpins why people are concerned about lives being put at risk for political gain.

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  2. Appreciate the comment but it is important to stress that no lives in Texas to my knowledge were "put at risk for political gain." If you have specifics, please write another comment.

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  3. The first mention of "flash flood emergency" in the bulletin products was at 4:03am CDT according to this warning archive:
    https://mesonet.agron.iastate.edu/vtec/?year=2025&wfo=KEWX&phenomena=FF&significance=W&eventid=38&tab=textdata&radar=USCOMP&radar_product=N0Q&radar_time=202507040610

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    Replies
    1. Mark, thank you so much. This warning is not included in the College of DuPage archive of the event. I am revising the timeline in my piece.

      Thanks again!

      Delete
  4. I work disasters and I have worked children's camps in the past. I wonder how many people involved with the camp (or headquarters for the camp) were aware of, or knew to watch the weather. Camp is a great way to connect to people and nature, and get away from technology. Those NOT at camp may not have been aware of the circumstances to warn the camp staff of the storm. If the camp gets cellular service, are there WIAs in Texas? IPAWS? What are the cellular alerts in the area? Likely, only the staff leads would have cell phones with them-for the purpose of emergencies, but the children and most of the staff wouldn't when with the children. Land lines are necessary in these areas of low cell connectivity, but land lines are getting more and more difficult to keep. There's a lot here to pull from to make sure this doesn't happen again. We can work to prevent this. B.

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  5. May God rest their souls.

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  6. Mike, appreciate, as always, your passion for our shared sciences and your openness about correcting mistakes. Two errors in what you write do need correction 1) The first warning (including wording “life threatening flash flooding” and WEA activation was issued at 1:15 CDT and many in the flood area did receive WEA messages as Kim Klockow, who we both know, posted on her FB page and 2) your critique of WCMs as being “usually 8-4:30 M-F and would not have been on duty in the early morning morning of a holiday” is wrong and as cheap shot at all the WCMs we both know.
    The long time SAT WCM, Paul Yura, was not there since he took the early retirement offer as part of NOAA’s (really Russell Vought - OMB?) recent cuts to personnel and budget.
    Alan Gerard has a “must read” post on his Balanced Weather Substack.

    https://balancedweather.substack.com

    No subscription $$ needed to read

    Bob



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    Replies
    1. Hi Bob,

      I'm in not on Facebook. How did Kim determine that the WEA's were received at the camps, and in Hunt, Ingram and Kerrville -- the region about which I was writing (there is a map of the area in question in my blog post, above)? The fact they were sent doesn't mean they were received. Regardless, I don't know why you say a "correction" is needed because I said nothing about WEA's not being received.

      One of my very best friends is a Southern Region retired WCM and that's how he and others describe the job. Not sure how a statement of fact is "a slap." What mattered on Friday morning was the hydrologist, not the WCM.

      My source regarding the MIC was from a highly respected meteorologist in central Texas. Are you saying there was no MIC appointed for that WFO on Friday?

      As to "life threatening," it was the NWS that committed itself (2003) to issuing FFE's when there would be life-threatening flash floods that would require "water rescues." Those are their words, not mine. If they cannot -- consistently and accurately -- issue FFE's in high impact floods, then they should repeal that regulation and go back to FFW's, only. Otherwise, EM's and the public will assume that, in the absence of an FFE, it isn't a high-impact event.

      Bob, it is fine if you wish to be the NWS's champion. I respect you and your point of view. But, if you really wish to be helpful, I wish you would also champion the National Disaster Review Board. Otherwise, these disasters will keep recurring.

      Delete
    2. Mike,

      1) reach out to Kim and ask her yourself if you’re so enthusiastic about this issue

      2) MICs are not as crucial to everyday operations as you think. In fact, SOOs and WCMs tend to be much more involved (maybe not the best friend ones you know)

      3) it’s not a guarantee the service hydrologist would be working, or available, at 3am, especially on a holiday. They are more “regular business hours” as well, just like WCMs and SOOs.

      4) seems a little nitpicky to slice and dice the difference between a considerable FFW that triggers WEA - which contains very strong language - to a FFE with the same notification strategy. In fact, FFE’s are for the “unheard of” situations, which by definition (if we want to get nitpicky) was not the situation here as deadly FFs have happened here in the past - it’s “Flash Flood Alley” for a reason - and the hunt gauge didn’t break the record. So it wasn’t “unprecedented or unheard of”.

      5) who are you to assume that “EMs and the public will assume that, in the absence of an FFE, it isn’t a high impact event”? You’re the “US Weather Expert”, not the US Societal Behavior Expert. Stay in your lane.

      6) take a dose of humility every now and then and ask yourself if it’s really worth going there. Predicting the weather isn’t like flying a plane. Much more unpredictable. A national disaster review board would not be the end all by all of all natural disasters like you constantly profess. Maybe some grace and understanding is owed to the 5 people at the WFO who were doing their best to serve the mission with the information that they had. Your Monday morning armchair forecasting is as old and washed up as you are.

      Delete
    3. It is unfortunate the people who write nastygrams don't have the courage to sign their name. Regardless, let me handle of couple of these points:

      #4, if it is "nitpicky" to expect the NWS to do the job they have defined for themselves (Congress didn't create the "flash flood emergency warning," the NWS did), then I'm happy to be nitpicky. The NWS suffers (that is the correct word) from lack of accountability and so it doesn't improve. Tornado warnings have become roughly 40% LESS accurate since 2010. The NWS also created the "tornado emergency" warning which, in terms of accuracy, has been a disaster. Per Dr. Patrick Marsh's dissertation, they are correct an awful 17% of the time.

      The NWS needs to stop representing to the public that it can do things that are beyond the state-of-the-art.

      #5. If I don't do it, who will? After all, we don't have a National Disaster Review Board.

      While there aren't figures up to 2024, data from 1959 - 2019 says more than 1,069 people have died in Texas from flash floods and the reference says "most in the Hill County" but doesn't break the number out. This latest, horrific event looks like the death toll, many children, will be around 80. ISN'T TIME WE PUT A STOP TO THIS TOO FREQUENT OCCURRENCE?! I'm confident the heartbroken parents would agree with me.

      #6. When, in January, the Army helicopter flew into the American Airlines plane attempting to land in Washington, we expected the NTSB to investigate the accident. When their final report is released, they will contain both of the names and background information of the people who flew the helicopter even thought I am certain it is extremely uncomfortable to the families of the flight crew. It is the only way to stop similar accidents in the future.

      When a doctor screws up, aren't you glad hospitals have "mortality & morbidity" conferences so others can learn and prevent future errors?

      You wrote, "Maybe some grace and understanding is owed to the 5 people at the WFO who were doing their best to serve the mission with the information that they had." Did you notice I named no names even though I have them? Why did I withhold the names? Because my entire reason for blowing up my holiday weekend is to try to mitigate this frequent carnage. In private sector meteorology (where I spent most of my career), clients require detailed reports like the one I have written here when we screwed up.

      Keep in mind, I did not say there was no warning or that the warnings were poor. I said they were "subpar." I stand by that characterization.

      You wrote: "Your Monday morning armchair forecasting is as old and washed up as you are." Yes, I'm old, but having specialized in extreme weather for 50+ years, and having taught numerous short courses on the topic, hopefully my experience is of value, especially to people outside of meteorology and emergency management.

      Delete
  7. Clearly, though, Texas needs a thorough examination of its EM practices, at this in this part of the state. Have a detailed explanation from the federal government on how the forecast and warnings were timely and adequate…but no explanation from local, county, and state officials as to why there was inaction 🤷‍♂️🤔

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  8. Mike, Sorry, I can't post the copy of the image of the 1:14 AM warning, which requested "EAS Activation" and included "HAZARD :Life threatening Flash Flooding"

    Kim's FT post is worth reading, and she included video and audio for this young woman who listened to the warnings and later wrote his on FB:

    "I don’t usually post on social media, but I feel compelled to mitigate some of the misinformation regarding the warning system.
    We were primitive camping at HTR campground in Ingram/ Kerrville when the flood event occurred. We received multiple NWS notifications throughout the night. There was no issue with cellular service that night/early morning. However, the campground itself didn’t notify us via text that we needed to evacuate until approximately 20 minutes after instinct and common sense told us to GTFO. Not saying that this responsibility lies solely on the campground. Our campsite/tent was in close proximity to the river which was advantageous to our monitoring, people in campers didn’t have this vantage point. Also, I am attaching a short clip that I posted to my Snapchat. The video isn’t of the best quality due to darkness, but the audio is disheartening. There was nothing I could do aside from ensuring my family was safe.

    DO agree with you and Roger Pielke Jr. on the need for a "National Disaster Review Board". The Austin/San Antonio 16 year experienced WCM Paul Yura "retired" 3 months ago. Think he would have left the office at 4:30 PM before the flood? I've written on Roger's Substack my opinion on "completing the forecast" and the fixing forecast-best decision void with our enterprise not just NWS. If I correct misinformation, I'm not an apologist for NWS. Destroying NOAA and NWS research centers such as NSSL and NHC is not the answer. Also Alan Gerard, who we both know has an excellent post on Substack. I don't think need $$ to read.

    https://balancedweather.substack.com/p/balancedwx-special-tragic-flash-flooding

    Charge on,
    Bob

    https://balancedweather.substack.com/p/balancedwx-special-tragic-flash-flooding

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    Replies
    1. Hi Bob, I have read Alan's piece, thank you.

      Other quick comments: What happened Friday morning had nothing to do with potentially closing NSSL. This is what I mean by being a "champion."

      The woman at Ingram/Kerrville was well downstream of the camps. Her experience is almost certainly different from the campers'.

      As to the, " the 1:14 AM warning, which requested "EAS Activation" and included "HAZARD :Life threatening Flash Flooding" -- the public does not see these! Indeed, the public doesn't know they exist.

      Thanks so much for your support of a National Disaster Review Board! If you can tweet or otherwise make others informed (Congresspeople, for example) of your support it will help save lives in the future. Again, thank you.

      Delete
  9. Question: how can the information that is gathered be used to avoid this in the future?

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    1. As with the National Transportation Safety Board, the National Disaster Review Board will make recommendations. Hopefully, those will be used by (in this case) camp operators, local governments and state legislatures to make regulations (e.g., they must have satellite phones -- which have reception everywhere -- to receive storm warnings)..

      Delete
  10. The key question is could satellite and radar have given a slight early hint at how bad it was going to get?

    Tomer Burg posted a reasonable animation of the regional rainfall accumulation at https://x.com/burgwx/status/1941687024722833419. Though it's imperfect on location identification.

    But I dug in some more and made a fair estimation of where the main Hunt gauge you showed (2), the North Fork gauge upstream (1), and Camp Mystic are (Camp)... https://imgur.com/XPew7iA

    Tomer's radar radar loop shows the first 4" accumulation in the basin at 3:00 AM, and the first 8" accumulation at 4:00 AM (oh for more contours, alas, it's the best I've got handy without a lot more effort). But indeed to me it shows that the Camp/South Fork were much more in the heavy rain than the North Fork... perhaps (from a very crude estimation, so may well be wrong) not reaching 8" at Hunt/North Fork until nearer 8 AM while continuing to rain on the South Fork. Certainly the radar presentation shows more of the rain began/continued more southwest of Hunt rather than west for the main rise period. So could radar have helped give a bit more lead time. Yeah... though it took some pretty high resolution close analysis so see that. Especially if the forecaster knows the basin well.

    But the main gauge didn't offer much insight at all before 4. The North Fork gauge may've given hints nearer 3:30. And closely looking at radar maybe a bit more like 3:15 to issue the emergency as rain totals got near 5".



    And then the idea the high-tier emergency category upends public reaction to normal tornado warnings... that's a tough one for me to buy. https://imgur.com/a/QtwN4Pf shows the flash flood warnings in the previous 15 years. Looks like Kerr County, and the Hunt area, have had like 25 FFW in the past 15 years... so like 1.5-2 per year. Add in the few tornado warnings the area has had, and there's a lot of warnings, before even broaching the 5ish severe warnings a year, and there's a lot of messages. I think the problem from talking to people is that people don't warnings seriously because they come so often and don't impact that often. Which is indeed a whole different ball of wax, but the 75% FAR or whatever it is on tornadoes, and the relatively low impacts of most flood warnings (not to mention the severe warnings, which most ignore quite reasonably by their experience [what are the odds of life-significant impacts for any particular person from any particular SVR?]), well, it seems quite understandable they'd ignore generic warnings. Instead so many of these big events recently have had a bit of lead time as to how bad they were unfolding, from Helene, to some of the fires recently. So having an extreme-tier warning seems quite reasonable.
    To me the problem is such information isn't projected in meaningful ways. They're basically brought across in the same way as average-tier warnings... the same sirens... the same weather radio alert. Cell phones are the only place they do a bit better by limiting to higher-end flood categories (I was told by an NWS employee it's only the considerable and catastrophic [latter=flood emergency] tags in flood warnings that sound the phones). But they still go off for all tornado warnings (in theory), amber alerts, etc. So you'd get the same warning you get quite a few times a year. And may have switched off alerts for after a few dud tornado warnings at 3 AM or amber alerts in the other end of the state. I'd argue the opposite, that we need ways to alert the emergency tier alerts better.

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  11. Even indeed with a poor tornado emergency score (which is surprising, and could be evidence that there are too many undertrained/experienced forecasters issuing such warnings(?????))... most people have never gotten one. And I'm pretty sure most major events of recent (whether tornado, flood, top end severe, etc [I don't know what they do for fire, but hopefully have a similar criteria for when it's clear extreme things are happening in such places as the events started unfolding]) have gotten the emergency class warnings. So even if the FAR is higher, really don't think it will oversaturate folks... unlike current warnings.

    Now the main question, which I'm not sure we can answer now (may even have trouble answering down the road) is when things went bad at these different places. Reading back on the 1987 event nearby (https://www.weather.gov/ewx/wxevent-19870717) has some interesting things. That the big problem came when the river changed course basically. Which would make some sense compared to even fairly quick straightforward rise. Because you'd hear it, people closest to it may start screaming, etc. Whereas if the river cuts everyone off or undermines structures, that would seem the way that things unfold disasterously. When does that happen? I could find it quite reasonable that it happened in the like 3:30-4 AM period. Or it could have been later. If many were nearer 3:30ish, it might have been near impossible for a warning that would've done much? Or was it like after 4:30, and they either got the warning and didn't react enough, or didn't get it, and there's something that needs to be changed.

    But for such reasons and many more, totally, 110%, behind a disconnected disaster review body. Stuff gets thrown around ad nauseum. Many forecasters have inherent bias on their own group's verification (to the point many will be overly critical of reports outside their warnings, and overly passive on reports in their warnings). Politicians have plenty of bias. Private forecasters have motivations. A committee of the best, including some from outside the enterprise as a whole, would seem the best way to know what really happened... and improve.

    Thanks Mike,
    Shane Young

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    Replies
    1. Thank you, Shane. FYI, I received your third comment but will discuss it in a separate piece.

      Delete

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